I don’t usually have sufficient motivation to post much on any social media platform. This is rare for me. I am putting this out in the world in part hoping for some validation, in part hoping it sparks some kind of social action to save some semblance of privacy and dignity in this modern world.
Warning: this is long.
I just wrote an email to a recruiter withdrawing my interest in pursuing a job (it’s a recruiter hired by the hiring company). I am a software engineer with decades of experience who has been unemployed for almost a year with almost no interviews. I’m hungry for paying work. Yet. I did this. Below is the email I wrote, and it is hopefully self explanatory.
I think my career might be over - especially if the kind of process I experienced is now the standard for hiring. I want nothing to do with it.
I wrote this after multiple days of trying to set up my system for the “assessment”. I ended up having to install Windows 11 (I’m a Linux guy) because the assessment environment simply didn’t work. I tried FireFox, disabled plugins, tried two versions of Chrome - neither would work. It apparently had to be the Google version.
I upgraded an old version of Win 10 (because Microsoft pretty much forced it). Got it to work on Firefox for Windows.
Twice, mid-way through the assessment, it reset itself to square one. I didn’t try a third time. This assessment software monitored my face and would raise an alarm if I looked away. It controlled my microphone. It required full access to every aspect of the browser and had me do an alt-tab partway through this “test” in order to ensure I wasn’t using any other software. Insulting. Invasive. My equipment. My home.
---- the email ----8<----
First, I appreciate your understanding and that you gave me what information you have on how this software works. Now, the hard part. My disappointment will show in the text, and it is not directed at you or your company.
I’m inclined to cease pursuing this. I feel insulted by the process in the first place, but went through it understanding that we, as job seekers, have to accept compromises we would not otherwise accept because having a job is a fundamental requirement to literally survive and provide for our children.
However, the more I’m expected to change my personal, owned equipment and software in an invasive fashion just so some stranger can have 100% surveillance on my activities in my home in order to be considered for a job interview, the more insulted I become.
Granted, I’m unusual. I’ve dedicated myself to protecting my electronic privacy by installing malware and advertisement blockers on my phones, computers, tablets. I use VPN. I built my own home NAS because I am uncomfortable with placing all my personal, financial, and health records into “the cloud” (and being charged for the privilege). I am teaching myself how to use AI by downloading and running models in my home lab because I don’t want to give out my privacy and income to strangers.
I stopped using Windows at home years ago because I could not stand the way it was dictating to me how to run my computer and constantly seeking to part me from my money with distracting advertisements while siphoning everything about me back to their servers to better market to me. Worse, it was forcing me to buy new hardware in order to simply run the system after upgrades.
Here I am, faced with a stark choice. Debase my values for the sake of the possibility of a job with a company that apparently doesn’t consider applicants worthy of dignity, or remain unemployed - possibly forced to exit the career I love if everybody is doing this - and potentially fall into poverty.
If they’re doing this before they even talk to me, it tells me that as an employee I will have at minimum this same level of surveillance. Knowing this in the back of my mind will burn me out in under six months.
Unfortunately, I don’t think I could live with myself if I chose the first option, so I respectfully withdraw myself from this process. I’m a professional. I expect to be treated like one. If there are companies who are serious about hiring a professional, I’m all in. Please engage me.
top part of monitor: “genuine” windows qube in HVM -->sys-residentialproxy —> sys-vpn ----> sys-net
bottom part of monitor: tor browser chatting w/ ai ----->sys-whonix--------------> sys-vpn ----> sys-net
but it’s easier said than done, and more than that, it’s fucking infuriating having to do any of this shit.
i fucked up an interview because it took me an extra 30 minutes to find out chromium wouldn’t work, firefox wouldn’t work, and only plain vanilla chrome would work. you’re not the only one who has been fucked by this. the interview platform demanded chrome but won’t tell you; you have to trial and error find out. corporations want grateful docile slaves. it’s time consuming to figure out what normie bullshit each asshole corp wants.
it’s really fucked. when i use privacy preserving techniques, often company anti-fraud systems flag me as “fraud.” but if i actually use “white hat” tactics that “ethical pen testers” use, suddenly i’m allowed to have privacy and use my own system and they think i’m a normie.
sometimes i don’t even care any more and use systems that obviously seem like fraud, because it’s just me and not fraud and i hate them, and then if they think it’s fraud who gives a fuck. if they flag me as fraud, i’ll go with another company. none of their shit stops anyone good and these anti-privacy companies get a false sense of security from all the “amazing” cloudflare blocking and anti-fraud protection… they are getting charged blocking real users and then one day someone brutal and sophisticated comes, someone not like me who doesn’t know shit, and just destroys their servers.
You are channeling my feelings. In this case, the instructions said Firefox or Chrome, but it had to be Google chrome, since that’s the most invasive and Firefox was not working. It’s when he said try Chrome that I finally said to myself, “what the fuck am I doing?” And ended it.
I hate cloudfare. I use vpn so about 30% of the time I’m banned because some asshole use that IP for bad behavior. Usually fixed with a reconnect. However, the other 70% of the time I have to “prove I am human”. It’s exhausting.
I was eager to try Qubes a few years ago, and toyed with it. At the time it was not playing well with windows and setting up the is templates looked a bit annoying, so I dropped it with intent to revisit after a major version or two. I think now is a good time to pick it up.
Good on you. Very well said.
I can’t even bother trying to connect to Teams or Zoom or any coding test with my desktop. I’m lucky I have a Mac lying around and use safari when needed.
Luckily, I’m usually able to use both on Linux. Sometimes it’s dicey.
this reminds me I remember once my dad tried applying for a aircraft mechanic position and he was extremely weirded out as they proceeded to ask him nothing but questions related to marketing, how he would sell a pen, etc. Then it started getting jnto extremely weird territory. stuff like “would you ever consider stealing from your boss? have you ever killed someone?” he eventually just asked what was the position he was being interviewed for as he was told thus was a mechanic position and the questions were making him extremely uncomfortable to be divulging.
The woman looked at him weirdly for a minute, said “excuse me a minute” and left. an hour rolled by and he went to the front desk and found that the entire place was empty with the lights shut off at 3:22 PM. he tried calling later and they gave him shit for “being unprofessional by leaving.”
He said how was he unprofessional when everyone was fine with packing up and leaving? silence on the other end. they hung up and he was extremely confused. it was a multi million dollar company in the area so it’s not like this was some small office.
It was all an elaborate test.
Wtf this literally gives horror film vibes
That’s just cruel.
That is absurdly fucked up on the recruiter’s part. Your response was a good one.
Thank you.
Jesus. That’s brutal. I’m not in the software world and have never experienced an process like you just described.
I do remember feeling similarly disgusted years ago applying for a retail job where I had to do an insulting “phone” interview/test where a computer asked me a bunch (like 20-30) of dumb fucking questions like:
- “Have you ever stolen money from your job?”
- “Do you think it’s okay to come to work drunk?”
- “If you put money in a vending machine and got two items instead of one, would you put additional money in for the second item?”
That last question very specifically is one I’ll always remember because of how incredibly stupid and insulting it is.
I hope you find work at a company that respects you as a human being and as a professional.
That’s not even how vending machines work. You would just be paying for a new third item not the free second one.
The last one isn’t one that would generally disqualify you, more to catch you lying. There doesn’t exist people who would put more money in a vending machine because it’s a stupid idea and vending machines don’t work that way.
That’s a fair point.
Wtf – if you put more money in a glitchy vending machine, you’re gonna get yet more items.😑
“If you put money in a vending machine and got two items instead of one, would you put additional money in for the second item?”
No, I fucking wouldn’t, and I wouldn’t like to work for anyone who wouldn’t hire me because of that fact.
I’d probably give the extra item to someone, even if a stranger, but I certainly wouldn’t put more money in the machine. Especially considering most machines just give the money back if there’s no purchase made. What a dumb question.
I answered it “No”, because it’s so dumb. Back then I needed the job so I made the compromise, and I was so happy when I was able to leave that job.
How dare you not compensate the Coca Cola company for its loss, through its own actions, of a few pennies! You monster! Terrorist!
No, I fucking wouldn’t, and I wouldn’t like to work for anyone who wouldn’t hire me because of that fact.
“no, i fucking wouldn’t” is the right answer. answering otherwise would not lead to you being hired (or at least not based on that answer), it would lead to you being considered extremely untrustworthy in your responses in the questionnaire.
I half convinced myself the test session blowouts were actually a personality test. Would I keep trying the same thing 5, 10, 15 times? Am I supposed to contact them calmly seeking support? Does the way I respond reveal something undesirable? These thoughts enraged me even more.
If they’re looking for integrity and honesty, their tests engender a different response. Anybody who expects those positive behaviors from me loses access to them the moment they deny me the same on their part.
I half convinced myself the test session blowouts were actually a personality test. Would I keep trying the same thing 5, 10, 15 times? Am I supposed to contact them calmly seeking support? Does the way I respond reveal something undesirable?
i don’ think so. it works similarly when kids do some online assessment tests as part of entrance exam in schools for example. all the interviewer, whoever they are, just try to offload all their expenses on the other side and they get away with it because people usually don’t have a choice 😔
Neither would I. They can deduct it from the running tab of money vending machines have stolen from me over the years, the pricks.
I had it happen to me occasionally in a work setting many years ago. I was calling it getting a crit from the vendor machine. Happy times.
“If you put money in a vending machine and got two items instead of one, would you put additional money in for the second item?”
That is wild.
The vending company factors this into the prices they charge for the items, the amount they spend on the machine to ensure accuracy, and the amount they pay the people who stock the machines to do it properly.
If you take it upon yourself to unilaterally re-balance the equation, you’re not being noble, you’re just a fool.
Exactly! That question was later in the “test”, and my eyes were already rolling so hard. When I got that question I was dumbfounded by how stupid it is
“If you put money in a vending machine and got two items instead of one, would you put additional money in for the second item?”
I’ve done this twice in a row. First off, it is not my problem how the person stocking the vending machine puts two pieces of product together to make it happen. I’m not in their shoes, it’s not my job, therefore not my problem. Anybody who pays twice is a fool in that situation.
Also, if you put in money it’s going to either attempt to vend another item or return your funds. It’s pointless.
Besides, if the machine works correctly, you will get a third one. If you don’t choose, the next person gets a freebie.
I’m a professional. I expect to be treated like one. If there are companies who are serious about hiring a professional, I’m all in. Please engage me.
That’s really well said.
I remember being in the same situation a couple years ago in which I was accepted to an interview through a video chat web application hosted by the company.
To my horror, when I joined the meeting, it was not a video chat interview. It was a series of recorded clips of their HR person reading off questions, the clips pausing, and then a timer showing up on the screen noting “You have 15 seconds to answer”.
I was so put off by this that after the first question, I decided to spend the rest of the time I was being recorded explaining to them under no uncertainties that this was one of the most unprofessional interview processes I had ever engaged in, and that they had made it clear that they did not value my time whatsoever, so I had no reason to reciprocate.
I went through the exact same thing with Dyson back in ~2018 worst interview process I’ve ever experienced.
Yeah. I half expect that if I went to the next step, I’d be in an AI Zoom interview next.
Unfortunately I’m inclined to believe this is on purpose to filter out people with self-respect such as yourself.
It’s not just a cost-saving thing (though I’m sure that’s also a factor), it’s a way to make sure the only people who go through with such interviews are those who are very desperate. Because people who are desperate are more willing to subject themselves to poorer work conditions.
Companies will only stop doing this when it actually stops working, which is unlikely given the massive inequality in our world today.
As a dev with roughly 10 years (or more depending on how you count) of experience, I would have done the same. Beyond maintaining self respect, I feel like we have a duty to each other to ensure companies that treat candidates like this have the hardest time possible finding someone willing to put up with it. I don’t even entertain companies that won’t let me use my choice of distro - especially considering I’m web UI focused.
In the back of my mind, this was a factor. I felt I needed to be at least one person who would not debase myself just to get a job in which I’d constantly be told to debase myself.
I just wrote an email to a recruiter withdrawing my interest in pursuing a job (it’s a recruiter hired by the hiring company).
I certainly hope you plan to share this with the company for which you were applying, because the recruiter probably wouldn’t even finish reading this before binning it. The employer you were endeavoring to work for is who should be seeing this.
Yeah, probably. On the other hand, he probably needs to explain why I didn’t finish the assessment. I handed him my reason. He can do with that as he wishes. Remember that recruiters are people who deal with the same shit to get their jobs, si maybe some empathy.
He’ll say whatever he wants, and that’s bad for you
Doesn’t matter, really, but I understand what you mean.
Yeah I’d take a recruiter’s story with some salt.
If he’s burning through candidates he’s also likely burning through clients so they should too.
100% supporting OP.
I’m a highly experienced developer staying in a very low-paid job because the work is not for an unethical purpose and there’s relatively little employee surveillance or corporate politics. I know developers aren’t in a powerful position right now but I admire your reaction. It’s no way to treat people, and they won’t stop treating candidates disrespectfully until they see that it hurts their ability to hire. I expect the day will come soon when I have to make a decision like you and could be forced to leave this field.
a very low-paid job because the work is not for an unethical purpose
Are you hiring?
Unfortunately not. They haven’t hired anyone in years.
I’m not surprised. It seems like only the unethical companies have growth and turnover these days.
I know developers aren’t in a powerful position right now
I think we’re always in a somewhat powerful position, as we can always create our own shit, like we always did. Look at us here.
This is exactly the kind of job I’m looking for. The software industry is full of the vilest exploiters. I don’t care if I don’t get paid a bunch, I just don’t wanna fuck up our planet or our people.
It’s just unfortunate that most tech companies are full of the worst people to walk the planet. (I am being a little hyperbolic here, but honestly I’m so sick of all the experiences ive had)
It’s no way to treat people, and they won’t stop treating candidates disrespectfully until they see that it hurts their ability to hire.
Sadly, the current system creates a lot of desperate individuals, who don’t have the capacity or choice to avoid exploitation. People fall into depression, lose temper, have sudden outburst and all kinds of mental health problems.
Some people just burn out and break off, but extremes are also common in these environment, but they’re not attributed to the system but the individual.
So it doesn’t stop.
This is also why every big tech company is going full on AI and automation, so they can stop pretending to be humane.
i would have done the same. i went through the interview process for an engineering position a few years ago where they required an iq, reading comprehension, and basic arithmetic test. i felt so insulted by their apparent lack of trust in their applicants that i went off in the feedback field, whereupon they cold-called me to ask why i was so frustrated despite apparently being in the 95th percentile of all applicants. not something you want to tell someone applying to an engineering firm…
To be fair, a surprising number of candidates make it to the live interview stage while lacking fundamental reading and arithmetic skills.
But if you’re applying for an engineering position it’s unnecessary. Most companies require an engineering degree from an ABET accredited university, which means they get access to your transcript to make sure you actually went through that program
I’ve interviewed people with Master’s degrees that couldn’t figure out how to put together a for loop.
Basic competencies need to be confirmed.
yeah i’ve been on the other end too. but being forced to take a standardised test should feel humiliating to anyone over thirty.
My employer has its own homebrewed interview segment to cover this. It’s more subjective than a standardized test, but it’s arguably more fun and less insulting (although that doesn’t stop some entitled candidates from getting all huffy about it).
as long as it’s actually an in-person evaluation rather than an online form.
Yeah, we flap our meat at each other for an hour or so. These days it’s usually over a video call rather than in the same room, but there’s little functional difference.
whereupon they cold-called me to ask why i was so frustrated despite apparently being in the 95th percentile of all applicants
LOL, “despite.” You were frustrated because you were in the 95th percentile of applicants! Only the shittiest of the incompetents would put up with that nonsense.
the most frustrating thing was when they told me they made all their applicants go through the process, from janitors to sales to engineering to c-levels. apparently it made the company “statistically egalitarian”.
The fact you were in the 95th percentile and were so angry would have clued anyone above the 60th percentile into the thought that perhaps they should rethink their approach.
the annoying thing is that they are still market leaders in their field. it’s a big company.
I’ve told recruiters that if they don’t allow remote work then they can fly me out for an interview if they want more than a phone call.
That’s the funny part - they have offices about 15 minutes from where I live and it’s a hybrid job.
Then could you not do this testing on a machine at their office? What the heck?
Probably because they moved there executive offices last year to someplace far away. Funny how we have to be creative and figure how to “git 'er done” but "they’ don’t, isn’t it?
You made the right choice. I was treated with more respect when I was flipping burgers in college.
I remember receiving a call about a software dev position from a massive multinational corporation. But, I couldn’t have a proper conversation: I had a splitting headache and high fever due to cold. So, I told the guy to call me back in a couple of days, when I would be in a much better shape. He never called me back. And this perhaps not even that serious, all things considered.
But still, why do recruiters have to treat the potential candidates so inhumanely?
I feel this is the one of the after effects of AI is now a common distrust in anyone applying to a new role. With the rampant rise in cheating/faking one’s own skills with the utilization of AI comes with recruiters having to come up with a rather invasive way to ensure recruits aren’t utilizing AI during interviews to test real skills we’ve developed from our own experiences.
Instead of utilization, say: use Instead of utilizing, say: using
