I think car privacy isn’t talked about amongst any privacy enthusiasts online ever, and it apparently is one of the biggest data collectors out there. For someone like me who values electric cars for there affordability and environmental reasons, but still want physical car buttons and control over my data, how would I go about this?
how can I improve my privacy when buying a modern car?
Buy a train ticket with cash? Not guaranteed to be fully “private” in the cyberpunk shithole we live in but presumably more private than a car.
On that note, fuck every transit agency (including TransLink in Vancouver) who make it more expensive to buy tickets with cash compared to a transit card. And especially fuck you if your transit card system is a P3 with the data handled by a private company (again, including TransLink). You’re probably paying the money they thought they could have made selling your commute data to advertisers.
Bonus non privacy related rant: TransLink, the Earth and our decedents also say fuck you for using plastic RFID cards even for single journey tickets that will get promptly thrown in the trash when they expire in 90 minutes instead of a simple piece of paper that can biodegrade. They even wrap the plastic in paper to give the illusion of the ticket being made of paper when it absolutely is not. Yeah make single use microcomputers and antennas why don’t you? Can’t have transit being too eco friendly after all. They’re not futuristic, future generations will curse us for being so barbarically wasteful of precious resources while digging those RFID tickets out of landfills to extract silicon and metal from. Just print QR codes on normal paper tickets for god sake since the RFID cards probably only store a single unique ID that needs to be looked up against a database anyway, or better yet, just have coin slots on the fare gates and skip giving you a ticket altogether. Oh wait, but then they wouldn’t able to know which station you get off at and refuse to let you out until you’ve paid the upcharge for having the audacity to ride a fully automated train system even one station outside your home city.
Train stations have hella cameras
So do roads, and your metal cage literally has a code on a plaque tied directly to your government ID, with a retroreflective background and each character carefully engineered to be machine readable from any angle and lighting. Hell, a good number of the cars you pass have 360 degree camera arrays pointed directly in your windows, or if you spring for a higher end model with all the features, you get the privilege of a camera pointed straight at your face and at your passengers’ faces.
Also, you can cover your face on transit with something like a medical mask and sunglasses. If you try covering your license plate you’ll literally get arrested.
As scary & intrusive as all of that sounds, I’m still only worried they’ll spy me picking my nose while driving.
I mean, compared to what? Picking your nose on transit? The people sitting across from you is probably a bigger source of “spying” (and judgment) than the cameras in that case. IMO if you’re okay with being spied on in your car you really don’t have much more to worry about on a train or in a station.
I further submit that cars, being your personal space but still very much “in public,” give you much more of an illusion of privacy while in most cases being just as if not more invasive than transit.
Also, if we’re talking only the transit or road system and not the spying at your destination, driving gives much more precise location data than transit. They’ll know which exact house or building you pulled up to compared to which train station or bus stop you get off at. And if you do consider all surveillance, then they can figure out where you’re going even if you walk because there will be cameras at your destination.
Buy an older used ICE and have it converted to electric.
- Remove the modem, sometimes called the TCU.
- Buy a Slate truck. It has no connectivity.
Wouldn’t be surprised if it kept all the data internally and then published it to their servers when you go for to a service center or do maintenance.
“Bezos-backed”? There has to be a catch somewhere.
Keeping an eye on it since no other company is offering a similar lack of connectivity, but also not going to be surprised if it doesn’t deliver on its promises.
The catch is it’ll be enshittified as soon as it can.
The sad thing is you paid to get a car with a TCU, then paid a mechnic to remove it. Assuming you’re not a mechnic/hobbist yourself.
It’s good that Mozilla is shaming car companies and shining a spotlight on the issue. Journalists need to ask about tracking and privacy when a new car model comes out. Buyer should ask sellers the same.
no, I paid to get a car without that telemetry, as it would be part of the condition of sale
people don’t need to just accept what the dealer says. they can tell them to fuck off and go buy somewhere else
I often find “free market baby” doesn’t work with monopolies, or if all companies are doing the same evil thing.
true, effectiveness is not guaranteed
but you can still opt out entirely. bought a 2012 without that bullshit just yesterday
Alternatively, if you can’t remove the modem, find and remove the antenna. And if you can’t remove the antenna try and surround it with a metal, like aluminum foil.
On the technological side of things, you’re pretty much fucked no matter what. Virtually all car companies now have proprietary app integrations, partnerships with Google and Apple, and other anti-privacy features.
Some practical things you can do-
Opt out of as much data collection and sharing as you can. Read the manual and menu dive to disable optional features you don’t need.
If you finance or lease from the dealer, there are likely additional data disclosures and third party sharing that you can opt out of. Read all the paperwork when you sign your purchase or lease documents. In my case I had to literally fill out and mail something in (they don’t want it to be easy to opt-out because they make money from sharing the data with third parties).
With how expensive current cars are I don’t know how they manage to get away with this.
I’m actually prototyping some designs for making open source vehicles/transportation. The only way this stops is more people advocating for more privacy laws, & for more open source transportation/vehicles becoming a thing worldwide
Just like it is for laptops/phones and Social Media via Linux, FOSS, & Open Source
What does this have to do with the computer application software Firefox? Mozilla continues to loose the point of the company with this crap. Are they trying to hide the fact that shoved unneeded AI and yet more unwanted file support into the latest version?
the mozilla foundation is also a non-profit that studies how much privacy certain things have. I’m perfectly fine with this.
They only have money to do that because of their browser, yet they keep laying off people from their browser division.
Don’t. Despite the beliefs in modern cars saving the environment you’d probably do better to go vegetarian and repair an old gasoline car. Or you know use public transit with prepaid cards.
Some people don’t know it, but public transit is not always an option. Examples:
- you work night shifts
- you live in countryside
- you have a baby
You can’t! Even if you don’t use the cell phone based connections the car still has its own systems to wirelessly transmit data out.
You could yank the fuses associated with the cellular antennas but they’re attached to other electrical systems you’d want like the radio in every case I’ve experienced.
Also the data will be locally cached and can be collected when serviced or cause strange failures when it fills up the cars storage space. If considerate, smart engineers designed the car, they’d have different actual systems for the ecu, mcu, tcu and what have you but I’ve encountered one electric where it’s all in one.
So that’s scary.
Don’t buy a car made before 2007 and don’t buy an electric unless you know exactly what you’re doing I guess.
Or treat driving like a surveilled activity you partake of in public.
Electric cars are not that great for the environment if you look into it deeply. Purchasing an old car and having things rebuilt like the engine are much more sustainable. You could also swap the engine out for an electric motor.
The largest block to having modern private cars is that laws require cars to have driver monitoring systems and kill switches installed. Cars also have microphones in them for hands free calling, emergency calls, and active noise cancellation.
Connecting your phone to your car is also a huge privacy invasion as now your phone that knows everything about you is tied to an invasive vehicle that takes you everywhere. A data aggregators wet dream.
You would need to remove the sim card at the minimum but it’s impossible to know ahead of time if that will detrimentally affect it’s functions and throw codes.
I have read about work being done on Linux operating systems for cars that I assume would be more open to modification but I don’t think we can expect anything reasonably private anytime soon from that.
You can purchase used electric cars too.
There are no electric cars that don’t track you except for the really old NiMH Rangers and Rav4s and whatnot that they leased to fleets in California back in the day. Even the very first mass-market Nissan Leaf had unacceptable telemetry from day 1.
Nissan Leaf had unacceptable telemetry
My 2015 Leaf asks me every month on the car screen whether I want to opt in or out. I believe the old-timers on mynissanleaf.com, who say that when you tell it to opt out, it does. Sure, it would be better if it only asked once.
I also removed the SIM card.
Who would though? The marketing idea pushed to the public is that no oil changes means they need no maintenance. They are mechanical devices not magical devices. They require maintenance to stay in good working order like anything. Suspension, brakes (although less often with regeneration systems), tires, wipers, air filters, coolant, batteries 12v not just the rechargeable, transmission fluid (gear box oil on Teslas iirc), etc. This no maintenance myth has turned them into throw away disposable e waste. Not to mention the lack of service for repairing the batteries and computers in the USA leading to insurance totaling the vehicles and them ending up rebuilt in Ukraine.
My biggest worry with used EV is the batteries. Me living in a tropical country that can reach 40°C that has to take a big toll on battery health.
The other thing stopping me buying a new car is my old car still works fine and I don’t want to be in debt again for a car.
Battery degradation and telemetry/surveillance will still be large issues if you do that.
Just for Leafs and some of the short range compliance cars like Golfs that don’t have active thermal management of the battery. The old SparkEV batteries are following the expected curve mostly: about 10% loss in the 8yr warranty period, followed by relative plateau of slow degradation mitigated somewhat by its overprovisioning. Hyundai and Kia etc. batteries should be fine, for example.
Telemetry is just as much a problem though.
10% over 8yrs to me is a huge loss. Think of a 2004 vehicle. That doesn’t seem too old and certainly lots of those vehicles have modern expected amenities. It would have lost 25% of it’s fuel tank size today if it had a battery instead. Diesel hybrids would be a great solution for outstanding fuel economy that would last for many, many, many years
No no, after initial degradation, the battery health levels off and stays around 90% for a long while, generally.
My ICE vehicles are maintained but don’t have the new car fuel efficiency either. I wouldn’t be surprised to find they have lost 15% since they are pretty old.
Recent research shows that batteries are likely to outlast the body of most EVs, if the battery is not abused.
Also, people overestimate the typical daily range used with the primary or secondary vehicles, but even short range EVs cover the average daily drive for most.
Just because your phone is connected to your car. Doesn’t mean the car gets all the info. Apple and Google made the integration.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIryvRwxp9A&t=670
Timestamp 11min10sec
Ah, yes, here come the “just use your old car because EVs are worse for the environment than the Exxon Valdez or something” posts
That is a myth thoroughly debunked by just a little bit of research and data collection into the making and driving of EVs, as that assumption ran off an old study that used guesstimated worst-case scenario numbers and don’t really reflect what the actual numbers are.
If you want to avoid being tracked, you will have to disconnect the data modem somehow - it is part of your radio antenna. If it gets no power, it gets no connection. Either disconnect from the telematics unit, or at the antenna. Also, you can disconnect your telematics unit itself - the “black box” that lives under the dash and records your driving. Some aftermarket makers have “dummy plug” connectors which will trick the car into thinking it is connected. These are often used with aftermarket head units.
Beware that some cars are tracked by your financial lender, and they don’t like it when this happens. Some other cars actually have to be cloud connected once in a while or they stop working - which is the worst thing modern cars can do.
OP didn’t ask about EVs, they asked about modern cars.
Well, actually… Read the post again ;)
Cars are the problem. I am agnostic to whether the car is powered by steam, diesel, gasoline, or electricity. Tail-pipe emissions are a very small part of the overall pollution from a car.
I as a person wouldn’t even blame myself for buying an ICE car because I blame corporations for global warming etc. But I just want an EV because it’s cheaper to run, is more environmentally friendly, I can plug in to a wall socket at home, charge with solar panels etc.
Prove it’s a myth. I find it really hard to believe me going and purchasing a new car is better then using an already existing car. Manufacturing has a big cost for cars.
Just to point out that you made the initial argument and commented a view without evidence. Now you ask someone who disagrees to give evidence?
Rough math involved: production of a new EV results in between 8-15 tonnes of CO2 emissions, depending on the size of the batteries and vehicle trim.
But let’s aim for somewhere in the middle and take ~12 tonnes as a yardstick.
~12 tonnes of CO2 emissions equates to roughly 1,350 gallons of fuel.
Depending of fuel efficiency, this would equate to between 20k~45k miles.
Feel free to double-check my math in case I did anything wrong, but it does validate that most of these „facts” around EVs are likely FUD spread by fossil fuel aligned sources.
ETA: initially forgot to include CO2 emissions from electricity generation - but this varies wildly based on source (nuclear, hydro & renewables at 0 etc.)
I find this a bit misleasing, especially when (in the uk) electricity is only ~50% renewables apparently.
https://www.zemo.org.uk/assets/workingdocuments/MC-P-11-15a Lifecycle emissions report.pdf
For example, a typical medium sized family car will create around 24 tonnes of CO2 during its life cycle, while an electric vehicle (EV) will produce around 18 tonnes over its life. For a battery EV, 46% of its total carbon footprint is generated at the factory.
So EVs are a small improvement. Since I enjoy older cars and my privacy a lot more, I’m gonna keep enjoying them and not let manafacturers ram EVs down my throat, especially when a lot of them are hideous SUVs.
Not intentionally being misleading, as I do have a footnote calling out not including carbon emissions from electricity generation as they vary so wildly based on the energy source.
But unlike ICE cars, EV emissions from energy sources are improving over time as nations build more and more renewable energy sources. Your linked report is correct, but potentially out of date already - the UK for instance was already at 58% in 2024, with a goal of full of 95%+ by the end of this decade.
Here in Australia, our uptake of residential solar has been so high that our energy providers are offering free electricity during peak daylight hours to all customers to help use up all of that excess production. It’s quite feasible for a significant portion of us here to be able to not only recharge an EV for free, but with next-to-no CO2 emissions.
Additionally, we now have a big Government subsidy in place to install batteries in our homes as well: ~£4,000 for a ~30kWh system, fully installed!
I share your love for older cars, but with a toddler and another one planned - we need to have a modern, safe car for peace of mind. But believe me, I will be ensuring that I disable as much telemetry as possible due to privacy concerns.
But for a secondary/weekend car - there is always the option of electrifying an older car, allowing for the best of both worlds - in a sense!
Please use metric for anything scientific
By “tonnes”, do you mean 2,000lb or 1,000kg? In an engineering context, “ton” is the former and “tonne” is the latter.
“Tonne” is also synonymous with “long ton” (dur to converting to 2204.6lb), as well as “metric ton”.
Gladly, it will be years before I can afford a car that doesn’t respect my privacy.
Volkswagen (VW) had a massive scandal that showed how dangerous this is. By leaking driving behaviour, VW leaked hidden military bases, politicians likely visiting prostitutes and more. Lucky for them ethical hackers (CCC) found that and did not use the data.
Lucky for them ethical hackers (CCC) found that and did not use the data.
I think the most effective way to ensure privacy is to find data mined on anti-privacy politicians and release all of it to the public.
I wish I knew how.
Lucky for them ethical hackers (CCC) found that and did not use the data.
In other words “ethical hackers” wasted a great opportunity to give shithead politicians a taste of their own venom. Very frustrating.
Yea, CCC actually has a huge problem by being too ethical. Apparently they had cases were the data protection authority did not force companies to disclose the leak because access by CCC does not constitute access by a malicious third party; absolutely bonkers. Just because the malicious party didn’t open their mouth doesn’t mean they haven’t accessed the data, you pigeon.
Consumer reports recently added a privacy rating to their car ratings. I glanced at it a little last year. I think it rated if you could opt out and the reach of the sharing.
I do have to say that I’m generally disappointed with the discussion on this topic every tine it comes up. The majority of responses go contrast to the question. “Don’t buy a car” or “fix up a junker” are generally not helpful if you’ve already decided that your top priority is to have a newer car. Another thread actually recommended to move to another country where you could walk everywhere. Seriously.
Most often a car purchase is a complex decision making process where you need to weigh multiple, often conflicting priorities where privacy is only one aspect. I get the impression that if people followed the advice of the majority of these comments, they’d be living in a tent off grid, hunting for food to stay alive, but living their privacy dream.
I don’t think you have to “fix up a junker.” You can find older vehicles that are modern enough to incorporate OBD2 (which helps troubleshooting and maintaining) but modern enough not to be connected to surveillance programs; late 90s into early 2000s maybe even 2010s. You can find them that have been basically maintained.
You’ll sacrifice things like warranties and included maintenance plans, but you’ll be hard pressed to find a mechanic that won’t work on it, parts will be plentiful and cheaper because I feel like lots of things were less bespoke to each manufacturer around that time frame. Plus they didn’t have a computer connected to every little thing. And theres junkyards for big parts.If you have your own tools (or a friend with them) there will be a cheap shop manual you can get (like Haynes) and/or a plethora of youtube videos on how to fix and maintain it.
The price of ownership might be higher but the cost of entry will be significantly less. Not that everyone can or is willing to do the above but there is a middle ground that doesn’t involve junkers.
So, the options I see here are:
- Buying an older vehicle
- Disconnecting the modem and dealing with the car potentially refusing to work after a period of time or potentially uploading locally saved data when taken for service
- Spending a lot of time and money to convert an old ICE car to an EV and dealing with a janky EV that probably has a limited range under 100 miles
None of these are great options.
Yes but if you start building that kind of community they will stop being janky.
It’s honestly a good place to start.
As people learn how to do it, and discover all the landmines of doing it, that will clear the path fire the next generation of modders and custom work. This would create an opportunity for new markets.
I mean just look at where 3d printing is today. It’s great how far that enthusiast culture has grown and developed. No reason it can’t continue.
Sand things like the Slate truck that is intentionally developed for you to modify, could accelerate that exact community.
Honestly if you can get me the funding, I’ll start this community myself
what’s wrong with 2015 or older with low mileage?
Nothing; I’m currently driving cars even older than that. It’s just that as time goes on, it’s going to be harder and harder to find.
That option becomes a more remote opportunity with each passing year as stock diminishes so trying to find a long-term solution now makes sense.
it’s hard to get a reliable 10 year old car with low milage… harder every year until it will be impossible sooner than later
I just bought one today because of that. they’re just getting older the longer I wait, if I don’t need it right now, I might as well buy it so that it’s not getting rustier being driven by someone else
Toyota, Honda, or Mazda are good bets.
You’re fucked. Best you can do is ride a bike when possible, and keep driving old cars from the mid-2000s or earlier when necessary.
Well, my mom’s 2014 golf mk7 doesn’t have telematics. Just look at the specs and buy a car based on it.
Lotta early 2010s models are also telemetry free but have newer safety systems and probably less miles on them.
